Comments on: Despite loss to England, French showcase the players and style of rugby’s future http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/ Straightforward rugby commentary from a North American perspective Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:44:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Total Flanker http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4820 Total Flanker Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:58:33 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4820 "There can now be no dispute about the depth of the French squad." Huh? Why not? Just because he's dropped a bunch of players and picked another bunch doesn't mean he's creating strength in depth. Dropping Parra (great game all round), Dusutoir (best French tackle stats v England) and Bonnaire (who ruled the lineout) is just perverse. I was initially impressed with Lievremont's approach to this Six Nations but now it's looking like more of a random approach with no underlying plan. More doesn't necesarily = better. “There can now be no dispute about the depth of the French squad.”

Huh? Why not? Just because he’s dropped a bunch of players and picked another bunch doesn’t mean he’s creating strength in depth.

Dropping Parra (great game all round), Dusutoir (best French tackle stats v England) and Bonnaire (who ruled the lineout) is just perverse.

I was initially impressed with Lievremont’s approach to this Six Nations but now it’s looking like more of a random approach with no underlying plan.

More doesn’t necesarily = better.

]]> By: Josh Houston http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4813 Josh Houston Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:35:02 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4813 I agree, I've never met a player who would rather go for points, but almost every player I've ever met would rather win regardless if it's done by 10 penalty kicks or 3 tries. I just worry that rugby is catering to the fans too much. They changed the rules in hockey to promote scoring because fans got tired of 1-0 games and ties. No one in the NBA plays defense anymore and it's just a scoring spectacle. On the French changes, lets not jump to conclusions. Just because they made 6 changes doesn't mean the 6 replacments will get the job done. But of course they are playing Italy and with Bergamasco suspended for 13 weeks and Del Fava's suspension coming, they could call you and I up to play. I'm starting to wonder though if Lievremont's constant tinkering with the line up is what caused their forwards collapse against Ireland and their further woes against England. I agree, I’ve never met a player who would rather go for points, but almost every player I’ve ever met would rather win regardless if it’s done by 10 penalty kicks or 3 tries. I just worry that rugby is catering to the fans too much. They changed the rules in hockey to promote scoring because fans got tired of 1-0 games and ties. No one in the NBA plays defense anymore and it’s just a scoring spectacle.

On the French changes, lets not jump to conclusions. Just because they made 6 changes doesn’t mean the 6 replacments will get the job done. But of course they are playing Italy and with Bergamasco suspended for 13 weeks and Del Fava’s suspension coming, they could call you and I up to play.

I’m starting to wonder though if Lievremont’s constant tinkering with the line up is what caused their forwards collapse against Ireland and their further woes against England.

]]> By: Vic http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4810 Vic Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:36:59 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4810 Lievremont just <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/7266894.stm" target="blank" title="France coach makes eight changes" rel="nofollow">dropped Parra from the next match, and benched Trinh-Duc</a> along with 6 other changes. There can now be no dispute about the depth of the French squad. Lievremont just dropped Parra from the next match, and benched Trinh-Duc along with 6 other changes. There can now be no dispute about the depth of the French squad.

]]> By: Vic http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4807 Vic Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:02:50 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4807 I agree Josh, but from my limited experience in club play, I don't think i ever met a player who would prfer to go for points. And kicking is still a part of the game, noone wants that taken away entirely. I agree Josh, but from my limited experience in club play, I don’t think i ever met a player who would prfer to go for points. And kicking is still a part of the game, noone wants that taken away entirely.

]]> By: Josh Houston http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4806 Josh Houston Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:19:07 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4806 You're defining "the game of rugby" as you see it. It's not necessarily the way others see it. Other "true fans" may see kicking as a fundamental part of the game, which is an argument I've heard before. You’re defining “the game of rugby” as you see it. It’s not necessarily the way others see it. Other “true fans” may see kicking as a fundamental part of the game, which is an argument I’ve heard before.

]]> By: Vic http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4776 Vic Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:40:59 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4776 O, and one of England's try's came from a knock-on that the referee missed :) O, and one of England’s try’s came from a knock-on that the referee missed :)

]]> By: Vic http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4773 Vic Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:47:35 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4773 I wonder if you guys have watched the ELVs in action. The Super 14 is going well, the ELVs having little effect on infraction rates and lots of effect on the length of time the ball remains in play. And what is more satisfying to a rugby player, a kick at goal or a 5 metre lineout? I think any true fan of the sport wants the competition to be more about who can play the game of rugby better, not just who has the best kicker. As for slowing the ball down, England's whole strategy is based on this. If you are worried that the ELVs will increase ball recycling times, then you should be thrilled as England will be a lot more successful. Finally, a major reason for the ELVs was to make officiating easier and more accurate, especially at the breakdown/contact phases. I truly believe that the game will also be more exciting and draw more fans to the couch and to the stadiums. Remember, the fans are the ones who attract advertisers, and together these two groups fund the Professional teams. Without this, none of us will have any rugby to watch. I wonder if you guys have watched the ELVs in action. The Super 14 is going well, the ELVs having little effect on infraction rates and lots of effect on the length of time the ball remains in play. And what is more satisfying to a rugby player, a kick at goal or a 5 metre lineout? I think any true fan of the sport wants the competition to be more about who can play the game of rugby better, not just who has the best kicker.

As for slowing the ball down, England’s whole strategy is based on this. If you are worried that the ELVs will increase ball recycling times, then you should be thrilled as England will be a lot more successful.

Finally, a major reason for the ELVs was to make officiating easier and more accurate, especially at the breakdown/contact phases. I truly believe that the game will also be more exciting and draw more fans to the couch and to the stadiums. Remember, the fans are the ones who attract advertisers, and together these two groups fund the Professional teams. Without this, none of us will have any rugby to watch.

]]> By: Josh Houston http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4771 Josh Houston Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:32:14 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4771 Very compelling argument on the ELV's. I've gone back and forth on my feelings towards the affect they'll have. But I see your point and can't say there's not a large element of truth there. Very compelling argument on the ELV’s. I’ve gone back and forth on my feelings towards the affect they’ll have. But I see your point and can’t say there’s not a large element of truth there.

]]> By: Total Flanker http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4768 Total Flanker Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:21:02 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4768 Re France's depth - possibly, but currently it's only a matter of a few caps in certain positions - as I say, I'd like to have seen more of the youngsters involved with England and it's inevitable that they will be at some stage (I hope) - but also don't forget that England have introduced new players at numbers 6, 8, 9, 10 (briefly) and 11 so far this tournament. I only wish they'd very quickly add numbers 2 and 15 to that list (permanently). France's biggest problem is lack of depth in the front row but, like Australia, they must be praying that the ELVs will come riding to the rescue in this area. As for England winning matches based on penalties (and setting aside that we outscored France 2 tries to 1 on Saturday and 1 try to 0 in the RWC semi) if the opposition are going to commit offences to stop us playing then what else should we do? Mark my words, the free kick is a total cop out. Take this scenario - England (or New Zealand or anyone else for that matter are on the attack just outside the oppo's 22. Tackle made, ruck forms, defence manages to get a hand on the ball and slow it down, killing the momentum of the attack. Current sanction: penalty = 3 points or a kick to the corner and chance of try from lineout (so a defender with any sense will leave well alone or will knowingly sacrifice 3 points). ELV Sanction: free kick = possession only, or a scrummage at best (so the defender's choice is easy). Rugby players are not fools and will use the new laws to their advantage. The idea that tries are everything and that the laws of the game should be reduced to their lowest common denominator to make the game simpler for the sofa-bound soap-opera generation is just a joke. If they want to watch a simple game where each team takes turns to score they should try watching sevens...or better still, basketball. Rugby is by its very nature more complex, is all the more compelling because of such complexity and long may it continue to be so. And don't get me stared on the effect the ELVs are likely to have at grassroots level... Rant over :) Re France’s depth - possibly, but currently it’s only a matter of a few caps in certain positions - as I say, I’d like to have seen more of the youngsters involved with England and it’s inevitable that they will be at some stage (I hope) - but also don’t forget that England have introduced new players at numbers 6, 8, 9, 10 (briefly) and 11 so far this tournament. I only wish they’d very quickly add numbers 2 and 15 to that list (permanently). France’s biggest problem is lack of depth in the front row but, like Australia, they must be praying that the ELVs will come riding to the rescue in this area.

As for England winning matches based on penalties (and setting aside that we outscored France 2 tries to 1 on Saturday and 1 try to 0 in the RWC semi) if the opposition are going to commit offences to stop us playing then what else should we do?

Mark my words, the free kick is a total cop out. Take this scenario - England (or New Zealand or anyone else for that matter are on the attack just outside the oppo’s 22. Tackle made, ruck forms, defence manages to get a hand on the ball and slow it down, killing the momentum of the attack. Current sanction: penalty = 3 points or a kick to the corner and chance of try from lineout (so a defender with any sense will leave well alone or will knowingly sacrifice 3 points). ELV Sanction: free kick = possession only, or a scrummage at best (so the defender’s choice is easy). Rugby players are not fools and will use the new laws to their advantage.

The idea that tries are everything and that the laws of the game should be reduced to their lowest common denominator to make the game simpler for the sofa-bound soap-opera generation is just a joke. If they want to watch a simple game where each team takes turns to score they should try watching sevens…or better still, basketball. Rugby is by its very nature more complex, is all the more compelling because of such complexity and long may it continue to be so.

And don’t get me stared on the effect the ELVs are likely to have at grassroots level…

Rant over :)

]]> By: Josh Houston http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4766 Josh Houston Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:10:56 +0000 http://www.whatisrugby.com/2008/02/25/despite-loss-to-england-french-showcase-the-players-and-style-of-rugby%e2%80%99s-future/#comment-4766 You can't even contest the fact that France has more depth than England or many other nations. And I agree with Vic that the ELV's won't promote or result in more infringments. Offsides and foul play will stil be penalties and referees will not be any less likely to issue yellow cards for offenses that will soon be free kick offenses. In fact, I would expect a referee to issue yellow cards more frequently for inside the 22m infractions that would have simply been a penalty kick. So while we'll see less penalty kicks, I think you'll see less instances of idiots killing the ball at scoring opportunities. You can’t even contest the fact that France has more depth than England or many other nations.

And I agree with Vic that the ELV’s won’t promote or result in more infringments. Offsides and foul play will stil be penalties and referees will not be any less likely to issue yellow cards for offenses that will soon be free kick offenses.

In fact, I would expect a referee to issue yellow cards more frequently for inside the 22m infractions that would have simply been a penalty kick. So while we’ll see less penalty kicks, I think you’ll see less instances of idiots killing the ball at scoring opportunities.

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